Curse

Magikarp · Apr 20, 2008, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

Despite its shortcomings compared to pen & paper and cards, Guild Wars really does have one of the most diverse skill systems in a video game. 600 skills, with 8 professions, all allowed a secondary profession makes for a mind-blowingly complex skill system.

You're correct that there are a lot of skills that aren't viable for general use. This is the single biggest conflict between PvE and PvP. PvP doesn't need a huge variety of skills, for the reasons spawnofebil mentioned above. PvE requires tons of fun stuff to play with, since new skills are essentially new content. It's unfixable with the current system, but I know GW2 will have a different system, so we'll see there.

while i totally agree with you in almost all cases, im a firm believer that nothing is ever too far along to be saved, including the current state of the game.

Ekelon · Apr 21, 2008, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Good post. I agree with how PvE'rs only complain because of something being overpowered. There are no such things as monsters complaining.

JoeKnowMo · Apr 21, 2008, 01:19 AM // 01:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

This is the single biggest conflict between PvE and PvP. PvP doesn't need a huge variety of skills, for the reasons spawnofebil mentioned above. PvE requires tons of fun stuff to play with, since new skills are essentially new content.

QFT.
Well said.

RhanoctJocosa · Apr 21, 2008, 07:08 AM // 07:08

off topic somewhat, but does anyone know if izzy will still be the game balancer in gw2?

JR · Apr 21, 2008, 07:32 AM // 07:32

I don't think anyone outside of ArenaNet knows that right now, but there has been nothing to indicate otherwise.

cthulhu reborn · Apr 21, 2008, 08:31 AM // 08:31

Skill balances are always moments of mixed emotion to me. But the essential difference between PvE and PvP lies in the removed level cap for monsters in PvE. Yes, monsters are AI driven and relatively dumb but so are a lot of players if I may be so blunt.
Having played more PvP recently I found out that the human stupidity factor is definitely not limited to PvE as basic combat rules or skills having to do with things such as taking out the healer first, moving out of AoE damage or even simply targetting the same foe together are unknown to too big a group.
This leaves us with a large group of players that in spite of their unwillings to grasp certain basics still have to be able to kill level 28+ monsters with huge spike damage etc.
This is essentially, as far as I see it, the big reason for something like Ursan and a lot of other PvE only skills.
The other problem is that there are also players that are a lot smarter and figure out combinations that work really well. These are people who can come up with specific team builds like the all Necro, Rit or Para teams.
I would think that there would be a lot less need for skill balance if for example PvP teams are only allowed a max of 2 party members of each given single primary class. Of course doing that would limit certain possibilities but that would be the point. It certainly won't solve everything and some players will be upset at it but to be honest, this has been a big reason for skill nerfing specifically for necro's rits and para's.

So looking ahead at GW2, realising that limited time will be put in GW1 anymore, I would hope that Anet will be able to look at what some of the causes were for a lot of skill nerfs. It wasn't just that certain skills were necessarily too powerful or too weak, but they were too powerful when being used by 4 or 8 players at the same time or that skills where too weak to use against level 28+ monsters.
You don't see a PvP player dealing 400+ damage with a single attack or spell..in PvE you do.
And there simply is a tough challenge for a game builder to cater to people who really are clever gamers and those who are not or can't be bothered at the same time.

I think that these are some of the main reasons that make skill balancing tough in GW and that is what should be addressed with creativity and clever programming. GW2 will be able to reflect what they learned from GW1, let's hope that counts for something.

the_jos · Apr 21, 2008, 11:21 AM // 11:21

I have been away for the weekend but I encountered something that might help me explain why I bitch around on certain players.

I went to a little town with my family and because we live in different parts of the country and other reasons we went by seperate cars, each starting on different times.

When I arrived (the day after they arrived, I had to work on Saturday) it turned out they had some problems finding the place.
The reason is their GPS system did not know there is a little ferry accross a nearby river, sending them in a totally wrong direction.
I had no problem at all, but then, I don't use/need a GPS system.

The way I learned to map and still do dates back to school.
We had to learn all the large places in our country and later even some smaller places. Same for various European countries.

When I need to move from A to B, I take a map and look at all the large cities I need to move past.
Near the area I should be I focus on the smaller places and at the final part at streetnames. Not only those I need to follow but also large ones I need to pass.
It gives me a general route and also confirms my route whenever I pass such a point.

I think a GPS system is an excellent tool to use in the unknown but should not replace the actual knowledge of map reading and route planning.
The GPS makes you dependend on the device and when you are in traffic you need to watch the road and cars and not the GPS.
Also, when it fails or presents wrong information it's very usefull to work without it.
When I drive with a GPS most of the route it will tell me things I already know.
Take next way left (seen that, it was on those large boards for a kilometer now). Move ahead at this crossing (know that, the others streets is are oneway streets I may not enter).
Only near the place I need to be it will give me usefull information.

What I observe in Guild Wars is that people nowadays seem to enter the game with a GPS system in their hand. Or get one handed very soon. Call the GPS PvXwiki, UB, Sabway or whatever.
I think this takes a lot of knowledge away and makes people upset of small changes. A detour because of maintenance for example.
Because they can't use their GPS anymore and have to find their route again.
Or wait for an update on the GPS system.
But a large part of that route never changed, places won't move within a day.
It's just a small part that changed and a detour is easily found when you know the general route.

You won't hear me bitch on people who are trying to learn to find their way.
I will help them by poining the large places on the map and if they are near their goal even the smaller. Or even assist them by going with them to the next place if I think that's best.
I still enjoy helping them, even a W/R who plays bow/pet because he wants to.
I do bitch on people who only use their 'GPS' and tell me and others it's the only way. There is a massive number of possible routes and while not all are the best or fastest they will get people to the final location.
Sometimes sightseeing is more enjoyable then taking the highway

Taco Bell · May 08, 2008, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

off topic somewhat, but does anyone know if izzy will still be the game balancer in gw2?

Most likely.

A bit off topic, but before any updates on skill changes, Anet goes through a number of processes, etc etc to confirm if the changes are necessary. I assume Izzy has great convincing skills to make Anet devs agree with all the bad skills changes he suggested for Guild Wars.

To be honest, even though he pissed a lot of people off, I hope he works on skill balance for guildwars 2. He has the experience and knowledgeable people that is behind him. I don’t see anyone else more suited than him.

Vinraith · May 08, 2008, 04:55 PM // 16:55

IMBA stuff in PvE makes PvE boring, it's really that simple. Once the game ceases to be any kind of challenge or require any kind of thought it's just rote repetition and loses all entertainment value. I wish they'd nerf Sab's 3 necro build, to be honest. I try my damndest not to use it, but I always know that, if I need to, I can blow through almost anything in the game without much effort on my part and that's a huge demotivator to innovate with my builds.

I like that, throughout most of the life of the game, keeping PvP balanced has had the natural effect of "stirring" the PvE skill pool. I like to be forced to change my strategies from time to time. We've gone too long without any real need to rethink anything in PvE, if you ask me.

sixofone · May 08, 2008, 06:40 PM // 18:40

I thought that the point of the PvE in GW was to train us up for the PvP aspect of it? (If we wanted to.)

What I'm not so clear about is: can you balance skills at all? Aren't they inherently different? Aren't they going to have different applications just by their very nature? Can you even balance professions against each other? I mean, it seems that GW was designed with group play in mind. That being said, there are plenty of posts about how the devs designed PvE for "balanced teams" - and since they only had 6 professions to begin with, they designed with those in mind. But, I don't think anyone thought "Hey, a Necro should be able to go toe-to-toe with a Warrior!" So, can you really balance skills given that skills are not going to be equal, no matter what? Each skill is supposed to be unique, and fill a role. They are tools, as much as the armor and weapons.

I would love to see more skills finding use. When I first tried out a Mesmer, I loved the idea of the profession, and the whole "skill stealing" aspect to mess with people. But, Necros were more effective (in PvE), and had skills that worked just as well as most of the punishment skills in the Dom line. But, if Mobs in PvE were "balanced" - somehow (and I admit, I don't know how) - so that they had the same limitations as players (particularly energy), then my Mesmer would have been more equal to my Necro.

Bosses are a different matter - they're meant to be special, and a challenge. (Not that many of them are, but some can be real PITA.)

I play for fun, not to crush the game. It's a computer. It doesn't care how skilled I am, nor how "leet" I may fancy myself. It doesn't care if I scream in frustration over getting too much aggro and pwned, or if I find an area a cake walk. So, it comes down to: what do I get out of it? Am I enjoying it? And that's one thing about GW I really like - the equality of choice, for example, armour: it doesn't matter which style you buy. All armor functions the same. Looks are purely cosmetic. For GW2, I think race should be purely cosmetic, too.

I don't know. PvE only skills, I think, started a bad trend. Then EotN completely wanked everything, and abandoned the professions altogether in favor of rank - which, if that was how they started, might not have been a bad thing. "Profession" would be largely cosmetic, too, in that case. And everyone, regardless of class, would have access to the same sets of skills. Everyone would be equal, because we all potentially have the same skill set and it comes down to ability - do I use those skills, those tools, effectively or not? Am I a better player than you because I use the same skills better? That was the focus of PvP, wasn't it?

But, GW didn't start with everyone being equal. So, there's no way, short of a complete rebuild, that they are going to "balance" things. The game, by its very design, has imbalances that are meant to be utilized by being part of a team, and making a whole greater than the sum of its parts.

Sorry - lots of things have been brought up in this thread, and there's a lot to cover. Basically, make PvP and PvE skills the same, and design the PvE with that in mind. Make Mobs manageable - i.e., as like a player - as possible. (That may be impossible - certainly AI won't be as good as a player. And yet, so many times H&H is far more effective than PUGs, so perhaps that isn't correct?)

I appreciate the challenge the devs have. They have to develop with 8, or 12 depending on the area, human players, with a wide variety of possible professions, and still have a challenge in PvE. Tends to make you buff the mobs in order to do that, I think.

I'd like more uniqueness to professions, actually. Necros could be even more creepy and sinister and evil. Mesmers more mind-twisting and distracting. But, that's for another thread...

Rhaegor Stormborn · May 08, 2008, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

and in pve the sky is red, and in pvp the ground will be solid pewter. in pve the air will be jello, whereas in pvp th.....

yeah... thanks... novel idea, no thank you dude

Agreed. This whole seperation between PvP and PvE is a problem with the game. I want to do both and I want them to be the same game and I want them both balanced and integrated. I am new player to GW and I find the idea of PvE only skills repulsive, and the thought of further seperating the two facets of gameplay is even worse.

If the game designers can not balance PvP and PvE for GW2 I won't be purchasing it. PvE should be hard and not everyone should be able to do everything. Only those who have skill and work to perfect strategies, gear, builds, etc should be able to defeat the most difficult PvE encounters. That is what makes PvE fun for hardcore gamers like myself. PvP should build off of the PvE experience so that players have a reason to participate in PvE other than to make gold or pass the time.